Council of Trent-- deception-- christ's real presence

patrick68 · #**192** 09-04-2012, 06:37 PM

Quote:

=Lookinforacity;141589]Terry

Your right the word (Alone) is not in the text.

You say
"We all know we are justified by faith, but we are not justified by faith alone."

Then the logical question to your statement is, by what else are we justified?

Please supply scripture, which shows what else is needed.

JIM

Jim, PLEASE understand that there is ONLY ONE INFALLIBLE Rule for right and full understanding of the BIBLE

NEVER-EVER CAN, OR MAY ONE VERSE OR PASSAGE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER ANOTHER... ANY AND EVERY TIMES THIS SEEMS TO BE; ONE CAN BE 100%B SURE OF a HUMAN mis- UNDERSTANDING ERROR.

OK

NOT in any special order

Rom.1: 17 “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."

Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” --

Rom.1: 5 “through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,”

John 3: 5 AND “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” ..verses 35-36 “the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Matt. 19:17 …”If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

James 2: 10 “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.” .. AND 18-26 “But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

There are more but these make the necessary point.

God Bless,
Pat

Lookinforacity · #**193** 09-07-2012, 01:52 AM

Can it be agreed upon, what the scripture actually does say?

Eph. 2:8,9
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1) Verse 8 says.
"and that not of yourselves:" "it is the gift of God"

How far out of the equation ARE we or CAN we be removed and still attain the gift?
Has God effectively taken us completely out of the equation?

2) Verse 9 says.
"not by works"

In this context, what kind of action on our part would constitute works?

First of all, it is referring to the fact, there is nothing we have done, or can do to attain the gift.
Everything we need, in order for us to receive this gift from God, is included within the gift itself, becoming part of the gift.

I believe we are supplied with the faith, by which we are saved.
The gift is all inclusive, the faith which was needed in order to acquire the salvation which has been supplied by Gods' Grace.

CatholicCrusader · #**194** 09-07-2012, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lookinforacity

Can it be agreed upon, what the scripture actually does say?

Eph. 2:8,9
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1) Verse 8 says.
"and that not of yourselves:" "it is the gift of God".........

Yep. That's what is says. But the question is: What does it mean.

- Paul Says: "Not of works, lest any man should boast".
- But James says: "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
- Even Jesus, in Matt 25:31-46, says that those who do works of mercy go to heaven and those who don't go to hell.

So obviously we have to dig deeper into what Paul meant. Paul was a Pharisee, a devout follower of the Torah. When Paul speaks of works he usually means works of the law, i.e.: Works of the Torah, and to that we say, Amen! We are NOT saved by works of that law.

BUT: Works of charity, done by grace, do save.

Now, works of charity NOT done by grace mean nothing. Some people do good things just to show off or make themselves feel better: Those are not salvific. But works done by the prompting of the Holy Spirit ARE salvific.

And do not say that those kinds of good works are proof that we are saved: They are not!! Rather, that is how we "work out our salvation", by cooperating with the Holy Spirit when it nudges us to do good. Works are a cooperation with the Holy Spirit, not some after-effect of being "saved".

Lookinforacity · #**195** 09-08-2012, 02:17 AM

Is it possible to stay on subject?
I asked the question to find out if there was agreement with these verses, as they are written. You answered in the affirmative, then asked the question, "But the question is: What does it mean."

I have put forward what I felt they mean, why disregard my comments as though I hadn't said another thing after the question.

The next step would be to comment on the statements which have been made about these verses.
A discussion isn't just the posting of our thoughts and beliefs without, discussing what has already been placed on the table.

I am not, looking for an argument, But I am looking for an open forthright discussion, from anyone who wants to add something, but again, the subject is these two verses and the meaning of them in relation to us.

If anyone has an opinion put it out there, with scripture and explanation as to what they mean to you as far as the subject is concerned, but expect your opinion to be to be questioned, as I do mine, lets try to learn something.

patrick68 · #**196** 09-13-2012, 02:00 PM

Quote:

=Lookinforacity;141589]Terry

Your right the word (Alone) is not in the text.

You say
"We all know we are justified by faith, but we are not justified by faith alone."

Then the logical question to your statement is, by what else are we justified?

Please supply scripture, which shows what else is needed.

JIM

ALLOW ME to answer that please

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

God always Knew that Adam and Eve would sin Grievously

A Justification and Salvation Discussion Part 2 of 2

16. At all times the believer is accepted only in the 16. Sanctifying grace with in the believer
Person of Christ, his Substitute. makes him acceptable to God

The only reference to something like this that I was able to locate is: Eph. 2:12-22
AND it specifies as “member of Christ Catholic Church“; not one of many thousands of “man- made replacements and substitutes.” NOR does it say or imply THIS position CAN OR MAY OR WILL EXIST without conditions set rightfully by God. REMEMBER THE ONE INFALLIBLE RULE FOR RIGHT UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE. [above]

QUOTE: “remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, [SEE MATT. 19:17] that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Haydock’s Biblical-Commentary explanation on Eph. verse 14 through 20

“Ver. 14. Christ destroyed the enmity which, like a wall of separation, stood between Jew and Gentile, and united them into one people. He did this in his flesh, by his own blood, or the sacrifice he made of his flesh on the cross. … Ver. 19. You are no longer strangers with regard to God and his holy alliance. You are no longer travellers and vagabonds, without a God, as you were before your conversion; not knowing to whom you belonged, nor finding in paganism either solid foundation or truth, neither hopes for this nor consolation for future life. But now you are become citizens of the same city as the saints, and domestics of the house of God. … Ver. 20. The Church is in this place said to be built upon the apostles and prophets; why not then upon St. Peter?”

QUOTED FROM A SOURCE THAT I NOLONGER RECALL…
“St. Paul explains to the Christians in Rome, "For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law (Romans 3:28)." In this epistle to the first Jewish Christians, Paul warns the people not to consider themselves justified by the Mosaic Law expounded in the book of Leviticus. Because Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, St. Paul tells us that Christ’s Passion has merited the gift of grace, "But now without the law the justice of God is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Even the justice of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe in him: for there is no distinction: For all have sinned, [1 John 1:8-10] and do need the glory of God. Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24)."

Justification is a term that means the cleansing of sin in a person, and the communication by grace of "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22) " through Baptism. Christ has redeemed the whole world, but we must freely choose to cooperate in the redemption. Justification includes the forgiveness of original and personal sin, restoration of the interior man and sanctification of the soul through grace. Thus justification and sanctification occur together and are not exclusive of each other. Grace is a free gift of God that imputes divine life into the soul as well as the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. Sanctifying grace of the soul must normatively be received through the sacrament of Baptism. Through baptism, God adopts us as his sons and daughters. This is why Catholics baptize infants.

Jesus Christ alone can merit our initial justification and sanctification through his Passion and Resurrection. Once grace is imputed in the soul, faith, hope and charity can merit the increase of justification and sanctification.

Faith without good works is dead faith (James 2:17). The seven Sacraments of the Church increase grace and thus justification in the believer. Prayer for those of the Body of Christ and ourselves can merit increasing grace for others and ourselves. Christian suffering has a redemptive role by allowing us to cooperate with Christ’s Passion and suffering. Rejecting God’s love and grace through mortal sin results in lost justification. [1st. John 5:16-17] Venial sin weakens charity, but does not cut us off from Christ because venial sin (although offensive to God) is not a rejection of the heavenly Father.

No person can have an assurance of their salvation unless they receive an extraordinary revelation from God.

Can Justification be Lost?

St. Paul warns us that justification and sanctification are a life-long process, and we should be vigilant not to turn against God and lose our justification. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews is particularly powerful, "For if we sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27)." Paul assures us that those who take justification of grace for granted and continue to rail against God and defy cooperation with grace can lose their justification.

Can we have a definitive assurance of our Salvation?

Assurance of salvation is a presumption upon God that we can infallibly judge the state of our souls. The Bible is very clear that only God and God alone can judge a person’s soul. Paul writes, "For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, END QUOTES

Eph.1 :13 to 14 “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Matt.12: [37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Rom.2:13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

God was fully aware of what Adam and Ever were to choose. His plan for humanities salvation had to include a Messiah, and His Passion. Death and Ressurection from the time of their Creation.

This is the only reasonable explaination for why God Created Humanity “in His Image.” Having a mind, intellect and FREEWILL permnately attached to our souls. Isaiah explains just “why” we are granted such powerful gifts:

Isaiah 43: 7 “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND verse 21: “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” “MIGHT” being the key word for right understanding.

A theological understanding of the “powers of these gifts from God to His humanity” knowing full well that many; indeed, all of us [but the Virgin Mary; His Mother] would fail His Will and His Desire it is then possible to concludes that “in this freedom of choice” we are made more powerful than God Himself; BECAUSE that is His Divine Will. WHY?

“Why” is answered: Matt.5: 48] “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” God’s love for His Created humanity is perfect, is proven and is desired in return. The ONLY possibility humanity has to return “perfect love” for “perfect love” if it is FREELY given; FREELY proven.

And this dear friends is the missing understanding in the Protestant community. “Faith” requires only “belief.” Sure faith is improved with love; BUT love in not mandated. One can believe without loving; without self giving; without sacrifice. Clearly this key to one’s salvation is missed or ignored?

SUFFERING

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

1Pet.5: 1, 9 “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

In summation, I’d like to briefy respond to my original questions:

1. Why did God Create humanity?

To Know, Love [proven in obedience to all that He taught] and serve Him in this world so that we MIGHT be happy with Him in the next.

2. Why did God Create humanity “in His Own Image?” Genesis 1:26-27?

To enable us to Freely choose our Love of and for Him

3. Does confusion over Christ separate roles as Redeemer and Savior by the Protestant communions stem from a “lack of Faith” as intended by God?

Yes Absolutely!
“Redeemer” applies to everyone, past, present and future. THAT is what the Cross accomplished once and for all. BUT “salvation” and redemption” DO NOT mean precisely the same things.

4. What was and is Christ role as Redeemer? Is it separate from His Role as Our Savior?

Christ as “Redeemer” makes heaven once again a possibility. Access had been denied to ALL humanity because of the “Original Sin” of Adam and Eve. Christ became the NEW Adam while Mary in a non-essential [but nevertheless extremely valuable role] becomes “the New Eve.” Hell was immediately accessible for those who chose it; but heaven was denied to all who merited it until Christ Arose from The Dead and Ascended back “to the Father.”

5. What is Christ Role as “Savior and Salvation?”
Christ IS our Savior! Salvation is Only Possible through Him. But salvation is only a possibility when it is DONE IN FULL ACCORD with God’s plan and Divine Will. Period! Man-made innovations and shortcuts will NOT accomplish this goal.

6. What does the Bible teach on the issue of “personal justification?”

That is a multi-step process and each step must be completed

7. Is what the Catholic Church Teaches in full accord with Biblical Teaching?

Yes it was before the protestant revolution; has not changed because of it and remains God’s Will and Plan for humanities salvation.

8. Are protestants in accord with what the bible teaches?

No; sadly and the consequences would seem to be DIRE.

9. Can Justification be lost?

Absolutely:

Matt.25: 13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” ; Luke.21: 36 “But watch at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of man." Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.” 1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “ “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." THESE and many other similar WARNING WOULD BE UNNECESSARY IF SALVATION COULD BE ASSURED!

10. Can anyone’s salvation be assured?

Only by a direct infusion of knowledge by God personally. EXTREMELY RARE

11. Christ Instituted Seven Sacraments. WHY?

Faith is impossible without God’s grace.

Salvation even once attained can be lost

God Created the seven Sacraments as a source of NEEDED grace and demonstrates His unphantomable love for humanity by allowing humanity themselves to control the flow of these graces into our souls; thus having a HUGE effect on ones POSSIBLE salvation.

12. What are the minimum requires of “justification?”

Baptism [John 3:5]; Faith through grace [Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8]; Dying in the “state of grace [no unconfessed / unforvien Mortal sins [John 20:23 and Matt. 5:48]; Acts of charity [1st. Peter 1:7 and James 2]… AMEN!

A dear friend and a recent convert to Catholism, shared a great insight with me. She ask believers of “Faith Alone” as being sufficient for one’s salvation. “If “faith alone” is sufficient for ones’ salvation how is that Satan himself “knew Jesus was ‘the Christ; The Son of God.”

Mark 1: 9-26 “In those days Jesus [The Son of God] came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; [God the Holy Spirit] and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." [God the Father] … The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him. Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon [Later renamed by Jesus PETER /the rock] and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. And Jesus said to them, "Follow me and I will make you become fishers of men." And immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zeb'edee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. And immediately he called them; and they left their father Zeb'edee in the boat with the hired servants, and followed him. And they went into Caper'na-um; and immediately on the sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught. And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes. And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, "What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God." But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.”

2Cor.11: 14 “And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.”

God Bless, Patrick Miron

Council of Trent-- deception-- christ's real presence

Monday, October 29, 2012

Justified: God's Gonna Cut You Down--Re: Justification by faith?-- with patrick j miron

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