Wednesday, October 31, 2012

Today’s anathema from The Council Of Trent, Canon 9 on Justification -- with patrick j miron commentary

Today’s anathema from The Council Of Trent, Canon 9 on Justification 

 

 

 

Re: Justification by faith?


Quote:
=Lookinforacity;141589]Terry

Your right the word (Alone) is not in the text.

You say
"We all know we are justified by faith, but we are not justified by faith alone."

Then the logical question to your statement is, by what else are we justified?

Please supply scripture, which shows what else is needed.

JIM
ALLOW ME to answer that please

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,


God always Knew that Adam and Eve would sin Grievously

A Justification and Salvation Discussion Part 2 of 2

16. At all times the believer is accepted only in the 16. Sanctifying grace with in the believer
Person of Christ, his Substitute. makes him acceptable to God

The only reference to something like this that I was able to locate is: Eph. 2:12-22
AND it specifies as “member of Christ Catholic Church“; not one of many thousands of “man- made replacements and substitutes.” NOR does it say or imply THIS position CAN OR MAY OR WILL EXIST without conditions set rightfully by God. REMEMBER THE ONE INFALLIBLE RULE FOR RIGHT UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE. [above]

QUOTE: “remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, [SEE MATT. 19:17] that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Haydock’s Biblical-Commentary explanation on Eph. verse 14 through 20

“Ver. 14. Christ destroyed the enmity which, like a wall of separation, stood between Jew and Gentile, and united them into one people. He did this in his flesh, by his own blood, or the sacrifice he made of his flesh on the cross. … Ver. 19. You are no longer strangers with regard to God and his holy alliance. You are no longer travellers and vagabonds, without a God, as you were before your conversion; not knowing to whom you belonged, nor finding in paganism either solid foundation or truth, neither hopes for this nor consolation for future life. But now you are become citizens of the same city as the saints, and domestics of the house of God. … Ver. 20. The Church is in this place said to be built upon the apostles and prophets; why not then upon St. Peter?”


QUOTED FROM A SOURCE THAT I NOLONGER RECALL…
“St. Paul explains to the Christians in Rome, "For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law (Romans 3:28)." In this epistle to the first Jewish Christians, Paul warns the people not to consider themselves justified by the Mosaic Law expounded in the book of Leviticus. Because Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, St. Paul tells us that Christ’s Passion has merited the gift of grace, "But now without the law the justice of God is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Even the justice of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe in him: for there is no distinction: For all have sinned, [1 John 1:8-10] and do need the glory of God. Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24)."

Justification is a term that means the cleansing of sin in a person, and the communication by grace of "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22) " through Baptism. Christ has redeemed the whole world, but we must freely choose to cooperate in the redemption. Justification includes the forgiveness of original and personal sin, restoration of the interior man and sanctification of the soul through grace. Thus justification and sanctification occur together and are not exclusive of each other. Grace is a free gift of God that imputes divine life into the soul as well as the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. Sanctifying grace of the soul must normatively be received through the sacrament of Baptism. Through baptism, God adopts us as his sons and daughters. This is why Catholics baptize infants.

Jesus Christ alone can merit our initial justification and sanctification through his Passion and Resurrection. Once grace is imputed in the soul, faith, hope and charity can merit the increase of justification and sanctification.

Faith without good works is dead faith (James 2:17). The seven Sacraments of the Church increase grace and thus justification in the believer. Prayer for those of the Body of Christ and ourselves can merit increasing grace for others and ourselves. Christian suffering has a redemptive role by allowing us to cooperate with Christ’s Passion and suffering. Rejecting God’s love and grace through mortal sin results in lost justification. [1st. John 5:16-17] Venial sin weakens charity, but does not cut us off from Christ because venial sin (although offensive to God) is not a rejection of the heavenly Father.

No person can have an assurance of their salvation unless they receive an extraordinary revelation from God.

Can Justification be Lost?

St. Paul warns us that justification and sanctification are a life-long process, and we should be vigilant not to turn against God and lose our justification. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews is particularly powerful, "For if we sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27)." Paul assures us that those who take justification of grace for granted and continue to rail against God and defy cooperation with grace can lose their justification.

Can we have a definitive assurance of our Salvation?

Assurance of salvation is a presumption upon God that we can infallibly judge the state of our souls. The Bible is very clear that only God and God alone can judge a person’s soul. Paul writes, "For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, END QUOTES

Eph.1 :13 to 14 “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Matt.12: [37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Rom.2:13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

God was fully aware of what Adam and Ever were to choose. His plan for humanities salvation had to include a Messiah, and His Passion. Death and Ressurection from the time of their Creation.

This is the only reasonable explaination for why God Created Humanity “in His Image.” Having a mind, intellect and FREEWILL permnately attached to our souls. Isaiah explains just “why” we are granted such powerful gifts:

Isaiah 43: 7 “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND verse 21: “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” “MIGHT” being the key word for right understanding.

A theological understanding of the “powers of these gifts from God to His humanity” knowing full well that many; indeed, all of us [but the Virgin Mary; His Mother] would fail His Will and His Desire it is then possible to concludes that “in this freedom of choice” we are made more powerful than God Himself; BECAUSE that is His Divine Will. WHY?

“Why” is answered: Matt.5: 48] “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” God’s love for His Created humanity is perfect, is proven and is desired in return. The ONLY possibility humanity has to return “perfect love” for “perfect love” if it is FREELY given; FREELY proven.

And this dear friends is the missing understanding in the Protestant community. “Faith” requires only “belief.” Sure faith is improved with love; BUT love in not mandated. One can believe without loving; without self giving; without sacrifice. Clearly this key to one’s salvation is missed or ignored?

SUFFERING

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

1Pet.5: 1, 9 “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

In summation, I’d like to briefy respond to my original questions:

1. Why did God Create humanity?

To Know, Love [proven in obedience to all that He taught] and serve Him in this world so that we MIGHT be happy with Him in the next.

2. Why did God Create humanity “in His Own Image?” Genesis 1:26-27?

To enable us to Freely choose our Love of and for Him

3. Does confusion over Christ separate roles as Redeemer and Savior by the Protestant communions stem from a “lack of Faith” as intended by God?

Yes Absolutely!
“Redeemer” applies to everyone, past, present and future. THAT is what the Cross accomplished once and for all. BUT “salvation” and redemption” DO NOT mean precisely the same things.

4. What was and is Christ role as Redeemer? Is it separate from His Role as Our Savior?

Christ as “Redeemer” makes heaven once again a possibility. Access had been denied to ALL humanity because of the “Original Sin” of Adam and Eve. Christ became the NEW Adam while Mary in a non-essential [but nevertheless extremely valuable role] becomes “the New Eve.” Hell was immediately accessible for those who chose it; but heaven was denied to all who merited it until Christ Arose from The Dead and Ascended back “to the Father.”

5. What is Christ Role as “Savior and Salvation?”
Christ IS our Savior! Salvation is Only Possible through Him. But salvation is only a possibility when it is DONE IN FULL ACCORD with God’s plan and Divine Will. Period! Man-made innovations and shortcuts will NOT accomplish this goal.

6. What does the Bible teach on the issue of “personal justification?”

That is a multi-step process and each step must be completed

7. Is what the Catholic Church Teaches in full accord with Biblical Teaching?

Yes it was before the protestant revolution; has not changed because of it and remains God’s Will and Plan for humanities salvation.

8. Are protestants in accord with what the bible teaches?

No; sadly and the consequences would seem to be DIRE.

9. Can Justification be lost?

Absolutely:

Matt.25: 13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” ; Luke.21: 36 “But watch at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of man." Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.” 1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “ “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." THESE and many other similar WARNING WOULD BE UNNECESSARY IF SALVATION COULD BE ASSURED!

10. Can anyone’s salvation be assured?

Only by a direct infusion of knowledge by God personally. EXTREMELY RARE

11. Christ Instituted Seven Sacraments. WHY?

Faith is impossible without God’s grace.

Salvation even once attained can be lost

God Created the seven Sacraments as a source of NEEDED grace and demonstrates His unphantomable love for humanity by allowing humanity themselves to control the flow of these graces into our souls; thus having a HUGE effect on ones POSSIBLE salvation.

12. What are the minimum requires of “justification?”

Baptism [John 3:5]; Faith through grace [Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8]; Dying in the “state of grace [no unconfessed / unforvien Mortal sins [John 20:23 and Matt. 5:48]; Acts of charity [1st. Peter 1:7 and James 2]… AMEN!

A dear friend and a recent convert to Catholism, shared a great insight with me. She ask believers of “Faith Alone” as being sufficient for one’s salvation. “If “faith alone” is sufficient for ones’ salvation how is that Satan himself “knew Jesus was ‘the Christ; The Son of God.”

Mark 1: 9-26 “In those days Jesus [The Son of God] came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; [God the Holy Spirit] and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." [God the Father] … The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him. Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon [Later renamed by Jesus PETER /the rock] and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. And Jesus said to them, "Follow me and I will make you become fishers of men." And immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zeb'edee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. And immediately he called them; and they left their father Zeb'edee in the boat with the hired servants, and followed him. And they went into Caper'na-um; and immediately on the sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught. And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes. And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, "What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God." But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.”

2Cor.11: 14 “And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.”


God Bless, Patrick Miron
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  #197  
Old 09-15-2012, 11:31 AM
patrick68's Avatar
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Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 114
Default Re: Justification by faith?

Quote:
=Lookinforacity;141773]Can it be agreed upon, what the scripture actually does say?

Eph. 2:8,9
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1) Verse 8 says.
"and that not of yourselves:" "it is the gift of God"

How far out of the equation ARE we or CAN we be removed and still attain the gift?
Has God effectively taken us completely out of the equation?

2) Verse 9 says.
"not by works"

In this context, what kind of action on our part would constitute works?
Certainly not Baptism: John 3:5

Nor Obedience to the Commandments: Matthew 19:17, John 3:35, Matthew 5:19

Not suffering: Luke.9 :23,Mark.8: 34, Luke.9: 23, Luke.14: 7

Nor actual and real forgiveness of one’s sins: 1st. John 1:6-7, 1st. John 5:16-17 and John 20: 23

Not Obedience to God’s Gospel: Matthew 28: 16-20, Luke 10:16, Mark 9:7, Prov. 30:5-6, Eph. 3:9-12, Rom. 10:17, John 12:48-49, 2nd.. Peter 1:16-21, 2nd. Peter 3:14-17 [are but a few examples]

Not Christ own teachings on “works”: Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.” 1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “ Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

My friend your position violates the ONE INFALLIBLE RULE for correct understanding of the Bible:

NEVER -EVER, CAN OR MAY ONE PART OF THE BIBLE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE, OR OEVER-RULE ANOTHER TEACHING. WERE THIS EVEN THE SLIGHEST POSSIBILITY[IT’S NOT]; THEN THE BIBLE WOULD BE WORTHLESS; USELESS IN LEARNING AND TEACHING ONE’S FAITH.

Quote:
First of all, it is referring to the fact, there is nothing we have done, or can do to attain the gift. Everything we need, in order for us to receive this gift from God, is included within the gift itself, becoming part of the gift.

I believe we are supplied with the faith, by which we are saved. The gift is all inclusive, the faith which was needed in order to acquire the salvation which has been supplied by Gods' Grace.
So taking your statement literally would mean that you believe in Predestination. That God alone picks who is saved and who is dammed. This from Romans 8: 29-30.

Here are a few of the problems with your position.

1. This is an impossibility for God! God quite simply could not do this and still “be a perfect God” Duet.32:4, Gen.17:1, Matt.5:48

2. So we ask: are “fairness and justice” good things?

OF COURSE they are. Therefore God absolutely must be fair and just.

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, " If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

From this we can understand that because God Created us “in His Own Image” Gen. 1:26-27 by giving to all of humanity the similar to God’s mind, intellect and freewill which are permanently attached to our souls. And because these are “Spiritual attributes” [which is HOW humanity alone can emulate our God]; and because these “Spiritual Gifts” are what spend eternity in the place of OUR choosing; either hell or heaven; God must absolutely permit man to use them and determine for ourselves our eternal location. This is biblically grounded.

Isa.43 Verses 7and 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” OUR CHOICE; not God’s.

What Romans is actually saying is that God did and does know from the moment of our conception what OUR choice will be. But because He is a perfect God He obligates Himself to allow us to decide; that we may choose to prove our love of and for God; or to despise and hate Him. WHY? Because God is Perfect and demands that we too be perfect Duet.32:4, Gen.17:1, Matt.5:48; which requires on our part a “perfect manifestation” of love on our part, and perfect love MUST be given willingly given, not forced.

3. Predestination violates the principles of “perfection” that God himself set up and cannot rescind. God MUST permit humanity to self-determine our destiny because that is the precise reason we are created with the exclusive ability to do so. Christ came to “Redeem humanity”; nothing else.

4. Pre-knowledge IS NOT “predestination”. God making the choice for us.
If your position is NOT “predestination” but by “Faith Alone”; that too is in grave error.

Christ Founded only One set of Faith beliefs in ONLY One church precisely to avoid misunderstandings [that He alone knew would be forth- coming]. This man-made-Theology is a creation of the very human Martin Luther in the early 16th. Century, who took it upon himself to reinvent what is needed for ones personal salvation. In doing so Luther denied his Creator, his church and his faith. And in so doing has endangered countless protestant souls salvation.

Luther accomplished this by adding the word “alone” in conjunction with the word “faith.” It is not biblical. Check these searchable bible versions for verification:

Douay-Rheims Roman Catholic Bible Verses Search Study Holy Scriptures. [this one predates the KJ Bible]

The Holy Bible - King James Version: A searchable online version at The Literature Network [King James Bible]

Bible: Revised Standard Version

Biblical evidence of this is plentiful.

Matthew 10:1-8
Matthew 16:15-20
Matthew 18:18
Matthew 28:16 -20
John 14:16-17
John 17: 15-19
John 20:19-23

ALL OF WHICH ARE CHRIST SPEAKING, COMMNADING THE APOSTLES PERSONALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY; AND FROM WHOM TODAY’S CAHOLIC CHURCH ALONE IS GROUNDED, FOUNDED AND PROTECTED BY JESUS HIMSELF.

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body [MEANS ONLY ONE CHURCH] and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [ONLY ONE ACCEPTABLE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, [with] Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure [singular] is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”
Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,”

God allowing us to choose does NOT mean he accepts our choices, our desires, our will verses His Divine Will as “OK..” Because God is Perfect He MUST make His judgments of all and each of us BASED on what HE; God makes possible for us to know as truth. NOT what we choose to accept. That is why Protestant salvation is at grave risk.

NOW BACK TO”WORKS”
One MUST use GREAT care in quoting Saint Paul‘s "not by works" passages. WHY?

Because there are two totally different messages in the New Testament.

The passages Paul uses MOST often is "WORKS OF THE LAW"; meaning the OLD TESTAMENT Covenant; the 10 Commandments AND the 600+ ADDITIONS TO THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ADDED over time, this references "The Law" that is not aided by “works”. WHY? Because they are creations of “man”; not commanded by God Himself.

Romans 3:20 “Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

2: Romans 3:28: “For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.”

3: Galatians 2:16: “But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.”

4: Galatians 3:2: “This only would I learn of you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

5: Galatians 3:5: “He therefore who giveth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you; doth he do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of the faith?

6: Galatians 3:10: “For as many as are of the works of the law, are under a curse. For it is written: Cursed is every one, that abideth not in all things, which are written in the book of the law to do them.”

7: Romans 3:27: “Where is then thy boasting? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.”

HERE IS THE OTHER HALF OF THE SAME TEACHING

Matthew 5:16: So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

John 9:4: I must work the works of him that sent me, whilst it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. [meaning after death it is too late!]

Saint Paul Romans 2:6: Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Saint Paul Romans 3:28: For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law

Saint Paul Ephesians 2:10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Saint Paul Ephesians 5:11: And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them

Saint Paul 1 Timothy 6:18: To do good, to be rich in good works, to give easily, to communicate to others,

Saint Paul Titus 1:16: They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate.

Saint Paul Titus 2:7: In all things shew thyself an example of good works, in doctrine, in integrity, in gravity,

Saint Paul Titus 2:14” Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable, a pursuer of good works.

Saint Paul Hebrews 10:24: And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works:

James 2:14: What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? James 2:17: So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. James 2:18: But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

2 Peter 1:10: Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

Revelation 2:23: And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works.

The Bible itself gives prudent guidance to how [and who] should read the bible. Perhaps the single most important guidance is too take GREAT care, use the utmost caution in culling this or that verse to support a position or faith-claim. 2nd. Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.” …This teaching is saying three critically important things. 1. It supports the ONE INFALLIBLE RULE stated earlier 2. It affirms that the ENTIRE bible is guided and protected by God 3. Because of this the ENTIRE bible is to be used in acquiring truth; in supporting ones positions of what God actually teaches.

2nd. Peter 1: 20-21 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

John.14: 23 -24 “Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me’ [NOTICE the concise verbiage. Not what “you think I am saying; NO! What “I AM” saying IS what I mean. [Exo. 3:14] saying”]. God who is Perfect; All-Knowing; ALL Wise cannot misspeak, mislead, or deceive. God can ONLY do “good.”

I look forward to your response.

God Bless my friend,
Pat

 

Alone again or - The Damned-- by patrick j miron and the CC

start here with patrick j miron

Patrick Miron
My DEAR friend you’d be SHOCKED if I did not reply to your current post.


Wish I could honestly say that I am indeed “a gentle reader” of this post
Again what is missing is right understanding according to patrick j miron 

(Almost true and almost false)


FACTS:

 ED-
(the 1st century catholic church is NOT the church of today)

The 21 Ecumenical Councils

I. FIRST COUNCIL OF NICAEA
Year: 325
Summary: The Council of Nicaea lasted two months and twelve days. Three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. Hosius, Bishop of Cordova, assisted as legate of Pope Sylvester. The Emperor Constantine was also present. To this council we owe the Nicene Creed, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans).
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm
II. FIRST COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
Year: 381
Summary: The First General Council of Constantinople, under Pope Damasus and the Emperor Theodosius I, was attended by 150 bishops. It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308a.htm
III. COUNCIL OF EPHESUS
Year: 431
Summary: The Council of Ephesus, of more than 200 bishops, presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria representing Pope Celestine I, defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/05491a.htm
IV. COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON
Year: 451
Summary: The Council of Chalcedon -- 150 bishops under Pope Leo the Great and the Emperor Marcian -- defined the two natures (Divine and human) in Christ against Eutyches, who was excommunicated.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/03555a.htm
V. SECOND COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
Year: 553
Summary: The Second General Council of Constantinople, of 165 bishops under Pope Vigilius and Emperor Justinian I, condemned the errors of Origen and certain writings (The Three Chapters) of Theodoret, of Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia and of Ibas, Bishop of Edessa; it further confirmed the first four general councils, especially that of Chalcedon whose authority was contested by some heretics.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04308b.htm
VI. THIRD COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
Years: 680-681
Summary: The Third General Council of Constantinople, under Pope Agatho and the Emperor Constantine Pogonatus, was attended by the Patriarchs of Constantinople and of Antioch, 174 bishops, and the emperor. It put an end to Monothelitism by defining two wills in Christ, the Divine and the human, as two distinct principles of operation. It anathematized Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, Macarius, and all their followers.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04310a.htm
VII. SECOND COUNCIL OF NICAEA
Year: 787
Summary: The Second Council of Nicaea was convoked by Emperor Constantine VI and his mother Irene, under Pope Adrian I, and was presided over by the legates of Pope Adrian; it regulated the veneration of holy images. Between 300 and 367 bishops assisted.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/11045a.htm
VIII. FOURTH COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE
Year: 869
Summary: The Fourth General Council of Constantinople, under Pope Adrian II and Emperor Basil numbering 102 bishops, 3 papal legates, and 4 patriarchs, consigned to the flames the Acts of an irregular council (conciliabulum) brought together by Photius against Pope Nicholas and Ignatius the legitimate Patriarch of Constantinople; it condemned Photius who had unlawfully seized the patriarchal dignity. The Photian Schism, however, triumphed in the Greek Church, and no other general council took place in the East.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04310b.htm
IX. FIRST LATERAN COUNCIL
Year: 1123
Summary: The First Lateran Council, the first held at Rome, met under Pope Callistus II. About 900 bishops and abbots assisted. It abolished the right claimed by lay princes, of investiture with ring and crosier to ecclesiastical benefices and dealt with church discipline and the recovery of the Holy Land from the infidels.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09016b.htm
X. SECOND LATERAN COUNCIL
Year: 1139
Summary: The Second Lateran Council was held at Rome under Pope Innocent II, with an attendance of about 1000 prelates and the Emperor Conrad. Its object was to put an end to the errors of Arnold of Brescia.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09017a.htm
XI. THIRD LATERAN COUNCIL
Year: 1179
Summary: The Third Lateran Council took place under Pope Alexander III, Frederick I being emperor. There were 302 bishops present. It condemned the Albigenses and Waldenses and issued numerous decrees for the reformation of morals.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09017b.htm
XII. FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL
Year: 1215
Summary: The Fourth Lateran Council was held under Innocent III. There were present the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem, 71 archbishops, 412 bishops, and 800 abbots the Primate of the Maronites, and St. Dominic. It issued an enlarged creed (symbol) against the Albigenses (Firmiter credimus), condemned the Trinitarian errors of Abbot Joachim, and published 70 important reformatory decrees. This is the most important council of the Middle Ages, and it marks the culminating point of ecclesiastical life and papal power.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09018a.htm
XIII. FIRST COUNCIL OF LYONS
Year: 1245
Summary: The First General Council of Lyons was presided over by Innocent IV; the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch, and Aquileia (Venice), 140 bishops, Baldwin II, Emperor of the East, and St. Louis, King of France, assisted. It excommunicated and deposed Emperor Frederick II and directed a new crusade, under the command of St. Louis, against the Saracens and Mongols.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09476b.htm
XIV. SECOND COUNCIL OF LYONS
Year: 1274
Summary: The Second General Council of Lyons was held by Pope Gregory X, the Patriarchs of Antioch and Constantinople, 15 cardinals, 500 bishops, and more than 1000 other dignitaries. It effected a temporary reunion of the Greek Church with Rome. The word filioque was added to the symbol of Constantinople and means were sought for recovering Palestine from the Turks. It also laid down the rules for papal elections.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09476c.htm
XV. COUNCIL OF VIENNE
Years: 1311-1313
Summary: The Council of Vienne was held in that town in France by order of Clement V, the first of the Avignon popes. The Patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria, 300 bishops (114 according to some authorities), and 3 kings -- Philip IV of France, Edward II of England, and James II of Aragon -- were present. The synod dealt with the crimes and errors imputed to the Knights Templars, the Fraticelli, the Beghards, and the Beguines, with projects of a new crusade, the reformation of the clergy, and the teaching of Oriental languages in the universities.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/15423a.htm
XVI. COUNCIL OF CONSTANCE
Years: 1414-1418
The Council of Constance was held during the great Schism of the West, with the object of ending the divisions in the Church. It became legitimate only when Gregory XI had formally convoked it. Owing to this circumstance it succeeded in putting an end to the schism by the election of Pope Martin V, which the Council of Pisa (1403) had failed to accomplish on account of its illegality. The rightful pope confirmed the former decrees of the synod against Wyclif and Hus. This council is thus ecumenical only in its last sessions (42-45 inclusive) and with respect to the decrees of earlier sessions approved by Martin V.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/04288a.htm
XVII. COUNCIL OF BASLE/FERRARA/FLORENCE
Years: 1431-1439
Summary: The Council of Basle met first in that town, Eugene IV being pope, and Sigismund Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. Its object was the religious pacification of Bohemia. Quarrels with the pope having arisen, the council was transferred first to Ferrara (1438), then to Florence (1439), where a short-lived union with the Greek Church was effected, the Greeks accepting the council's definition of controverted points. The Council of Basle is only ecumenical till the end of the twenty-fifth session, and of its decrees Eugene IV approved only such as dealt with the extirpation of heresy, the peace of Christendom, and the reform of the Church, and which at the same time did not derogate from the rights of the Holy See.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/06111a.htm
XVIII. FIFTH LATERAN COUNCIL
Years: 1512-1517
Summary: The Fifth Lateran Council sat from 1512 to 1517 under Popes Julius II and Leo X, the emperor being Maximilian I. Fifteen cardinals and about eighty archbishops and bishops took part in it. Its decrees are chiefly disciplinary. A new crusade against the Turks was also planned, but came to naught, owing to the religious upheaval in Germany caused by Luther.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/09018b.htm
XIX. COUNCIL OF TRENT
Years: 1545-1563
Summary: The Council of Trent lasted eighteen years (1545-1563) under five popes: Paul III, Julius III, Marcellus II, Paul IV and Pius IV, and under the Emperors Charles V and Ferdinand. There were present 5 cardinal legates of the Holy See, 3 patriarchs, 33 archbishops, 235 bishops, 7 abbots, 7 generals of monastic orders, and 160 doctors of divinity. It was convoked to examine and condemn the errors promulgated by Luther and other Reformers, and to reform the discipline of the Church. Of all councils it lasted longest, issued the largest number of dogmatic and reformatory decrees, and produced the most beneficial results.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm
XX. FIRST VATICAN COUNCIL
Years: 1869-1870
Summary: The Vatican Council was summoned by Pius IX. It met 8 December, 1869, and lasted till 18 July, 1870, when it was adjourned; it is still (1908) unfinished. There were present 6 archbishop-princes, 49 cardinals, 11 patriarchs, 680 archbishops and bishops, 28 abbots, 29 generals of orders, in all 803. Besides important canons relating to the Faith and the constitution of the Church, the council decreed the infallibility of the pope when speaking ex cathedra, i.e. when as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.
Further Reading: www.newadvent.org/cathen/15303a.htm
XXI. SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL
Years: 1962-1965






the patrick j miron version of the catholic church is as follows



The CC is the Only Church and

THE ONLY SET OF FAITH BELIEVES

 1. TAUGHT

2. ACCEPTED

 3. AND COMMANDED BY CHRIST TO HIS APOSTLES



 [AND THROUGH THEM TODAY'S CC]



TO BE TAUGHT.


THE BIBLE NEVER-EVER SAYS ONE IS ENTITLED TO THERE OWN FAITH-VIEWS;

IT DOES HOWEVER SAY TO “OBEY THE BIBLE”




Acts.5:[29]. “But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. [32] And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” … Rom.10:[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” … 2Thes.1:[8] inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus
ONLY the Apostles are given the Command; the authority and the warranty and protection of Christ Himself to teach BECAUSE they alone have the TRUTH [singular] promised from Christ Himself.
Matt.10: 1-8 “And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [later changed in Mt 28 to the ENTIRE WORLD] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay”
Matt.16 Verses 15 to 19 “He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I[JESUS] will give you[Peter and through him the CC] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matt.28 Verses 16 to 20 ” Now the eleven disciples[APOSTLES] went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
NOTABLELY SINGULAR AND ADDRESSED ONLY TO THE APOSTLES AND TODAY’S CC
The warranty of Christ also is exclusively to this same group and the same church ALONE
Luke.10: 21 “In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will”
John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you”
John 20:19-23 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
JESUS HERE IS PRAYING IN HIS HUMAN NATURE TO GOD THE FATHER FOR THE APOSTLES AND HIS NEWLY FOUNDED CC
John.17 Verses 15 to 19 ” I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
[19] And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth”
FACT:
All Seven Sacraments were and And are instituted by Christ Himself. OBVIOUSLY He does so with a purpose and for a reason; that REASON is that EACH Sacrament is a source and an opportunity of the GRACE humanity in an absolute sense needs to be saved.
Each sacrament has the God Given power to produce of itself when properly administered and receive to produce “the GRACE that it signifies”
For example the MOST Holy Eucharist [the Gift Of God the Father of God the Son by God the Holt Spirit] is THEE single most abundant fountain of GRACE available to “man”
John 6:41-46 “The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven’?”
[43] Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
[50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him”
ND THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT TAKES PLACE IN CATHOLIC HOLY COMMUNION
GOD CANNOT LIE
GOD CANNOT DECEIVE
GOD IS PERFECT AND KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID AND WHAT HE MEANT AND IT WAS UNDERSTOOD BY
Mt. 26
Mk.14
Lk 22
Paul 1st. Cor. 11
I’ll continue in a seperate reply because of length
God Bless pat

Monday, October 29, 2012

Justified: God's Gonna Cut You Down--Re: Justification by faith?-- with patrick j miron

start here

Re: Justification by faith?

Terry

Your right the word (Alone) is not in the text.

You say
"We all know we are justified by faith, but we are not justified by faith alone."

Then the logical question to your statement is, by what else are we justified?

Please supply scripture, which shows what else is needed.

JIM
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  #192  
Old 09-04-2012, 06:37 PM
patrick68's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 114
Default Re: Justification by faith?

Quote:
=Lookinforacity;141589]Terry

Your right the word (Alone) is not in the text.

You say
"We all know we are justified by faith, but we are not justified by faith alone."

Then the logical question to your statement is, by what else are we justified?

Please supply scripture, which shows what else is needed.

JIM
Jim, PLEASE understand that there is ONLY ONE INFALLIBLE Rule for right and full understanding of the BIBLE

NEVER-EVER CAN, OR MAY ONE VERSE OR PASSAGE MAKE VOID, INVALIDATE OR TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER ANOTHER... ANY AND EVERY TIMES THIS SEEMS TO BE; ONE CAN BE 100%B SURE OF a HUMAN mis- UNDERSTANDING ERROR.

OK NOT in any special order

Rom.1: 17 “For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, "He who through faith is righteous shall live."

Eph.2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” --

Rom.1: 5 “through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,”

John 3: 5 AND “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” ..verses 35-36 “the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

Matt. 19:17 …”If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

James 2: 10 “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.” .. AND 18-26 “But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

There are more but these make the necessary point.

God Bless,
Pat
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  #193  
Old 09-07-2012, 01:52 AM
Lookinforacity's Avatar
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Posts: 130
Default Re: Justification by faith?

Can it be agreed upon, what the scripture actually does say?

Eph. 2:8,9
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1) Verse 8 says.
"and that not of yourselves:" "it is the gift of God"

How far out of the equation ARE we or CAN we be removed and still attain the gift?
Has God effectively taken us completely out of the equation?

2) Verse 9 says.
"not by works"

In this context, what kind of action on our part would constitute works?

First of all, it is referring to the fact, there is nothing we have done, or can do to attain the gift.
Everything we need, in order for us to receive this gift from God, is included within the gift itself, becoming part of the gift.

I believe we are supplied with the faith, by which we are saved.
The gift is all inclusive, the faith which was needed in order to acquire the salvation which has been supplied by Gods' Grace.

Last edited by Lookinforacity : 09-07-2012 at 01:58 AM.
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  #194  
Old 09-07-2012, 06:22 AM
CatholicCrusader's Avatar
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Posts: 2,594
Default Re: Justification by faith?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lookinforacity View Post
Can it be agreed upon, what the scripture actually does say?

Eph. 2:8,9
8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1) Verse 8 says.
"and that not of yourselves:" "it is the gift of God".........
Yep. That's what is says. But the question is: What does it mean.

- Paul Says: "Not of works, lest any man should boast".
- But James says: "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
- Even Jesus, in Matt 25:31-46, says that those who do works of mercy go to heaven and those who don't go to hell.

So obviously we have to dig deeper into what Paul meant. Paul was a Pharisee, a devout follower of the Torah. When Paul speaks of works he usually means works of the law, i.e.: Works of the Torah, and to that we say, Amen! We are NOT saved by works of that law.

BUT: Works of charity, done by grace, do save.

Now, works of charity NOT done by grace mean nothing. Some people do good things just to show off or make themselves feel better: Those are not salvific. But works done by the prompting of the Holy Spirit ARE salvific.

And do not say that those kinds of good works are proof that we are saved: They are not!! Rather, that is how we "work out our salvation", by cooperating with the Holy Spirit when it nudges us to do good. Works are a cooperation with the Holy Spirit, not some after-effect of being "saved".
__________________


"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so" - St. Augustine (Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D. )

Last edited by CatholicCrusader : 09-08-2012 at 05:26 AM.
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  #195  
Old 09-08-2012, 02:17 AM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

Is it possible to stay on subject?
I asked the question to find out if there was agreement with these verses, as they are written. You answered in the affirmative, then asked the question, "But the question is: What does it mean."

I have put forward what I felt they mean, why disregard my comments as though I hadn't said another thing after the question.

The next step would be to comment on the statements which have been made about these verses.
A discussion isn't just the posting of our thoughts and beliefs without, discussing what has already been placed on the table.

I am not, looking for an argument, But I am looking for an open forthright discussion, from anyone who wants to add something, but again, the subject is these two verses and the meaning of them in relation to us.

If anyone has an opinion put it out there, with scripture and explanation as to what they mean to you as far as the subject is concerned, but expect your opinion to be to be questioned, as I do mine, lets try to learn something.

Last edited by Lookinforacity : 09-08-2012 at 02:20 AM.
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  #196  
Old 09-13-2012, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Justification by faith?

Quote:
=Lookinforacity;141589]Terry

Your right the word (Alone) is not in the text.

You say
"We all know we are justified by faith, but we are not justified by faith alone."

Then the logical question to your statement is, by what else are we justified?

Please supply scripture, which shows what else is needed.

JIM
ALLOW ME to answer that please

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,


God always Knew that Adam and Eve would sin Grievously

A Justification and Salvation Discussion Part 2 of 2

16. At all times the believer is accepted only in the 16. Sanctifying grace with in the believer
Person of Christ, his Substitute. makes him acceptable to God

The only reference to something like this that I was able to locate is: Eph. 2:12-22
AND it specifies as “member of Christ Catholic Church“; not one of many thousands of “man- made replacements and substitutes.” NOR does it say or imply THIS position CAN OR MAY OR WILL EXIST without conditions set rightfully by God. REMEMBER THE ONE INFALLIBLE RULE FOR RIGHT UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE. [above]

QUOTE: “remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, [SEE MATT. 19:17] that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Haydock’s Biblical-Commentary explanation on Eph. verse 14 through 20

“Ver. 14. Christ destroyed the enmity which, like a wall of separation, stood between Jew and Gentile, and united them into one people. He did this in his flesh, by his own blood, or the sacrifice he made of his flesh on the cross. … Ver. 19. You are no longer strangers with regard to God and his holy alliance. You are no longer travellers and vagabonds, without a God, as you were before your conversion; not knowing to whom you belonged, nor finding in paganism either solid foundation or truth, neither hopes for this nor consolation for future life. But now you are become citizens of the same city as the saints, and domestics of the house of God. … Ver. 20. The Church is in this place said to be built upon the apostles and prophets; why not then upon St. Peter?”


QUOTED FROM A SOURCE THAT I NOLONGER RECALL…
“St. Paul explains to the Christians in Rome, "For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law (Romans 3:28)." In this epistle to the first Jewish Christians, Paul warns the people not to consider themselves justified by the Mosaic Law expounded in the book of Leviticus. Because Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, St. Paul tells us that Christ’s Passion has merited the gift of grace, "But now without the law the justice of God is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets. Even the justice of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe in him: for there is no distinction: For all have sinned, [1 John 1:8-10] and do need the glory of God. Being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption, that is in Christ Jesus (Romans 3:21-24)."

Justification is a term that means the cleansing of sin in a person, and the communication by grace of "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22) " through Baptism. Christ has redeemed the whole world, but we must freely choose to cooperate in the redemption. Justification includes the forgiveness of original and personal sin, restoration of the interior man and sanctification of the soul through grace. Thus justification and sanctification occur together and are not exclusive of each other. Grace is a free gift of God that imputes divine life into the soul as well as the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity. Sanctifying grace of the soul must normatively be received through the sacrament of Baptism. Through baptism, God adopts us as his sons and daughters. This is why Catholics baptize infants.

Jesus Christ alone can merit our initial justification and sanctification through his Passion and Resurrection. Once grace is imputed in the soul, faith, hope and charity can merit the increase of justification and sanctification.

Faith without good works is dead faith (James 2:17). The seven Sacraments of the Church increase grace and thus justification in the believer. Prayer for those of the Body of Christ and ourselves can merit increasing grace for others and ourselves. Christian suffering has a redemptive role by allowing us to cooperate with Christ’s Passion and suffering. Rejecting God’s love and grace through mortal sin results in lost justification. [1st. John 5:16-17] Venial sin weakens charity, but does not cut us off from Christ because venial sin (although offensive to God) is not a rejection of the heavenly Father.

No person can have an assurance of their salvation unless they receive an extraordinary revelation from God.

Can Justification be Lost?

St. Paul warns us that justification and sanctification are a life-long process, and we should be vigilant not to turn against God and lose our justification. Paul’s letter to the Hebrews is particularly powerful, "For if we sin willfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries (Hebrews 10:26-27)." Paul assures us that those who take justification of grace for granted and continue to rail against God and defy cooperation with grace can lose their justification.

Can we have a definitive assurance of our Salvation?

Assurance of salvation is a presumption upon God that we can infallibly judge the state of our souls. The Bible is very clear that only God and God alone can judge a person’s soul. Paul writes, "For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, END QUOTES

Eph.1 :13 to 14 “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”

Matt.12: [37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Rom.2:13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

God was fully aware of what Adam and Ever were to choose. His plan for humanities salvation had to include a Messiah, and His Passion. Death and Ressurection from the time of their Creation.

This is the only reasonable explaination for why God Created Humanity “in His Image.” Having a mind, intellect and FREEWILL permnately attached to our souls. Isaiah explains just “why” we are granted such powerful gifts:

Isaiah 43: 7 “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND verse 21: “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.” “MIGHT” being the key word for right understanding.

A theological understanding of the “powers of these gifts from God to His humanity” knowing full well that many; indeed, all of us [but the Virgin Mary; His Mother] would fail His Will and His Desire it is then possible to concludes that “in this freedom of choice” we are made more powerful than God Himself; BECAUSE that is His Divine Will. WHY?

“Why” is answered: Matt.5: 48] “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” God’s love for His Created humanity is perfect, is proven and is desired in return. The ONLY possibility humanity has to return “perfect love” for “perfect love” if it is FREELY given; FREELY proven.

And this dear friends is the missing understanding in the Protestant community. “Faith” requires only “belief.” Sure faith is improved with love; BUT love in not mandated. One can believe without loving; without self giving; without sacrifice. Clearly this key to one’s salvation is missed or ignored?

SUFFERING

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

1Pet.5: 1, 9 “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

In summation, I’d like to briefy respond to my original questions:

1. Why did God Create humanity?

To Know, Love [proven in obedience to all that He taught] and serve Him in this world so that we MIGHT be happy with Him in the next.

2. Why did God Create humanity “in His Own Image?” Genesis 1:26-27?

To enable us to Freely choose our Love of and for Him

3. Does confusion over Christ separate roles as Redeemer and Savior by the Protestant communions stem from a “lack of Faith” as intended by God?

Yes Absolutely!
“Redeemer” applies to everyone, past, present and future. THAT is what the Cross accomplished once and for all. BUT “salvation” and redemption” DO NOT mean precisely the same things.

4. What was and is Christ role as Redeemer? Is it separate from His Role as Our Savior?

Christ as “Redeemer” makes heaven once again a possibility. Access had been denied to ALL humanity because of the “Original Sin” of Adam and Eve. Christ became the NEW Adam while Mary in a non-essential [but nevertheless extremely valuable role] becomes “the New Eve.” Hell was immediately accessible for those who chose it; but heaven was denied to all who merited it until Christ Arose from The Dead and Ascended back “to the Father.”

5. What is Christ Role as “Savior and Salvation?”
Christ IS our Savior! Salvation is Only Possible through Him. But salvation is only a possibility when it is DONE IN FULL ACCORD with God’s plan and Divine Will. Period! Man-made innovations and shortcuts will NOT accomplish this goal.

6. What does the Bible teach on the issue of “personal justification?”

That is a multi-step process and each step must be completed

7. Is what the Catholic Church Teaches in full accord with Biblical Teaching?

Yes it was before the protestant revolution; has not changed because of it and remains God’s Will and Plan for humanities salvation.

8. Are protestants in accord with what the bible teaches?

No; sadly and the consequences would seem to be DIRE.

9. Can Justification be lost?

Absolutely:

Matt.25: 13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.” ; Luke.21: 36 “But watch at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of man." Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.” 1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “ “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." THESE and many other similar WARNING WOULD BE UNNECESSARY IF SALVATION COULD BE ASSURED!

10. Can anyone’s salvation be assured?

Only by a direct infusion of knowledge by God personally. EXTREMELY RARE

11. Christ Instituted Seven Sacraments. WHY?

Faith is impossible without God’s grace.

Salvation even once attained can be lost

God Created the seven Sacraments as a source of NEEDED grace and demonstrates His unphantomable love for humanity by allowing humanity themselves to control the flow of these graces into our souls; thus having a HUGE effect on ones POSSIBLE salvation.

12. What are the minimum requires of “justification?”

Baptism [John 3:5]; Faith through grace [Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8]; Dying in the “state of grace [no unconfessed / unforvien Mortal sins [John 20:23 and Matt. 5:48]; Acts of charity [1st. Peter 1:7 and James 2]… AMEN!

A dear friend and a recent convert to Catholism, shared a great insight with me. She ask believers of “Faith Alone” as being sufficient for one’s salvation. “If “faith alone” is sufficient for ones’ salvation how is that Satan himself “knew Jesus was ‘the Christ; The Son of God.”

Mark 1: 9-26 “In those days Jesus [The Son of God] came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; [God the Holy Spirit] and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased." [God the Father] … The Spirit immediately drove him out into the wilderness. And he was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him. Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon [Later renamed by Jesus PETER /the rock] and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. And Jesus said to them, "Follow me and I will make you become fishers of men." And immediately they left their nets and followed him. And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zeb'edee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. And immediately he called them; and they left their father Zeb'edee in the boat with the hired servants, and followed him. And they went into Caper'na-um; and immediately on the sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught. And they were astonished at his teaching, for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as the scribes. And immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, "What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God." But Jesus rebuked him, saying, "Be silent, and come out of him!" And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying with a loud voice, came out of him.”

2Cor.11: 14 “And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.”


God Bless, Patrick Miron